#003 - Why the Path to Happiness Feels So Wrong

01:00:00: On your website, you write honor your

01:00:03: true self, find your own path and stand

01:00:07: confident in your truth.

01:00:08: I wanted to ask you what does that

01:00:10: sentence mean to you

01:00:11: right now in your life?

01:00:14: I feel as though it's constantly

01:00:15: calibrating to a new truth.

01:00:19: Because we evolve, right? Like how boring

01:00:21: if we were just the same

01:00:23: throughout our lives, right?

01:00:25: So I find for me that is constantly

01:00:28: staying connected to what is my heart

01:00:30: saying, my soul saying, like, you know, a

01:00:33: combination of the two and

01:00:35: honoring and following that.

01:00:38: Even if previously that like other path

01:00:42: was right, you know, as you're walking

01:00:44: along a path or you're driving on a road,

01:00:46: you know that that road changes.

01:00:48: And so many environments change, you

01:00:51: change, you evolve, everything around you

01:00:54: shifts and you feel different.

01:00:58: And then, yeah, the next the next thing

01:01:00: calls and it's about honoring that and

01:01:02: not just staying stuck in.

01:01:04: Usually it's an old identity that keeps

01:01:07: you stuck and you kind of wrestle with

01:01:10: your mind for a bit.

01:01:11: But following that sort of heart lead

01:01:13: call, I think to me,

01:01:15: that's that's what that means.

01:01:17: I'm interested now in how you see the to

01:01:22: give a little bit of context, I think in

01:01:24: we're in Bali right now, right?

01:01:27: And then I'm coming from Germany and it's

01:01:30: like very much like a whole different

01:01:33: mindset in a lot of ways.

01:01:35: It's like Western mindset. And when you

01:01:37: grow up in this, I think it's very like,

01:01:40: you know, you don't know anything else.

01:01:41: And it's very much like logical driven.

01:01:45: Right. And what you said and stated here

01:01:47: is kind of like the opposite.

01:01:49: It's like, OK, like listen to your heart

01:01:50: and your emotions and whatever.

01:01:52: How did you grow up like in that maybe

01:01:55: head versus heart conversation?

01:01:57: How was it for you personally growing up?

01:01:59: And I firmly believe and I know this is a

01:02:03: saying somewhere and I can't

01:02:04: attribute it to anyone specific.

01:02:06: But the saying is the longest journey you

01:02:08: will ever make is from

01:02:09: your head to your heart.

01:02:11: Love that. And I think that's a journey.

01:02:14: That's that's like a that's like a human

01:02:16: hero's journey, truly.

01:02:18: And I think like from my perspective and

01:02:21: how I view it on a macro level is that

01:02:24: particularly when you're born into a

01:02:25: Western society and, you know, there is a

01:02:29: there is even like a gendered split with

01:02:30: this in terms of people who identify as

01:02:32: feminine, identify as more masculine.

01:02:34: Like we are born into a Western place

01:02:39: that has paradigms like capitalism,

01:02:41: patriarchy, extracting resources.

01:02:44: Like what can you give me that kind of

01:02:46: thing? And we're swimming in this soup

01:02:47: and we become part of this soup. Right.

01:02:51: And I firmly believe from a zoomed out

01:02:53: level that a lot of our souls

01:02:55: purposefully chose to be in that soup so

01:02:58: that we could find that we could find our

01:03:00: way back into the heart. Right.

01:03:01: We could go from the head to the heart.

01:03:04: But that's certainly my own personal

01:03:06: journey, like particularly as a woman who

01:03:09: identifies as feminine, the being thrown

01:03:13: into a Western culture that that has like

01:03:16: the primacy of the mind.

01:03:18: I think a lot of women have and still do

01:03:21: sort of create this world within

01:03:25: themselves where their

01:03:26: mind is the strongest force.

01:03:28: And while we do need to be concerned with

01:03:32: our mind, it's actually like our hearts,

01:03:35: our heart coherence is far more powerful

01:03:39: in influencing our mind

01:03:40: than the other way around.

01:03:42: The Institute of Heart Math has an

01:03:43: amazing like a whole heap of great

01:03:46: studies on I'm pretty sure it's like like

01:03:49: it's almost like 90 percent versus the 10

01:03:53: percent, like 90 percent the heart versus

01:03:54: the 10 percent. Right.

01:03:55: And so the quicker you can do that

01:03:58: journey and get down there and use both

01:04:01: in concert, the more magic your life is.

01:04:04: But before you connect to your heart and

01:04:07: if you're just in the headspace, like I

01:04:09: call it this, I call it lollipop woman

01:04:13: syndrome because I've got, you know, sort

01:04:15: of a lot of experience with women who

01:04:17: come to see me and their energy body is

01:04:19: like this big lollipop.

01:04:21: And then it's in their head and then the

01:04:24: rest of the body is just a stick. Right.

01:04:27: And that is what I kind of sense in the

01:04:29: Western world is that it's just all up

01:04:31: here and there's not

01:04:33: much running through.

01:04:34: And in order for us to really be

01:04:37: connected and have deeply fulfilling

01:04:40: heart led lives and like we are

01:04:43: intuitions on, we need to be in our

01:04:45: bodies. We need to be in our hearts.

01:04:47: And and that's kind of where I see that

01:04:49: sort of that that tangle of having gone.

01:04:52: Yeah. Oh, man, it's all in the mind. And

01:04:55: then slowly melting down into my own body

01:04:58: and seeing everything

01:05:00: light up from there.

01:05:02: Like once you had the experience of it,

01:05:04: you can't can't go back.

01:05:05: Yeah, that's I think a lot of the things

01:05:07: you said also are the same for like men,

01:05:11: right? It's not men, women like you were

01:05:13: talking about women because you work

01:05:14: primarily with women.

01:05:15: Right. Yes. But I think the same is true

01:05:19: for men also. So I think, though, like

01:05:23: that a lot of people who are listening

01:05:25: might be like very skeptical because like

01:05:28: I know it for myself.

01:05:30: That sounds like, you know, to have this

01:05:32: very skeptical perspective and putting

01:05:34: the hat on of like the nice guy maybe

01:05:36: who's like just never heard anything

01:05:38: different in his life.

01:05:38: Like, OK, like my granddad, like my

01:05:42: father, like they made it without your

01:05:44: emotional stuff like it worked for them.

01:05:47: Right. Why? Why

01:05:47: should I do something else?

01:05:49: Like, I don't know. I'm kind of like, I

01:05:53: don't know. There's no other way for me.

01:05:55: Like, why? It sounds like you

01:05:57: want me to make me very soft.

01:05:58: Like, I don't I don't I how would I ever

01:06:01: get to where I want to be? Like, I had to

01:06:03: learn like I need to work hard. Right. So

01:06:06: what are you telling me now? It's like, I

01:06:09: don't know. Should it be softer?

01:06:11: Like, I don't understand this whole

01:06:12: thing. Can you can

01:06:13: explain that to me now?

01:06:14: I love that question. First of all, I

01:06:17: would ask the question of why are you

01:06:19: listening to this podcast? If you if

01:06:21: everything is sweet, why are you

01:06:23: listening to a beautiful

01:06:24: podcast called Drop Them Up?

01:06:26: You know what I mean? Like there's always

01:06:27: a reason why someone has come into

01:06:30: connection with content, with some kind

01:06:32: of information, right? Their soul is

01:06:34: guiding them into something.

01:06:35: So first off, I'd be like, there, there

01:06:39: it is. You know, I don't I don't seek to

01:06:42: convince anyone of anything. I and I

01:06:45: don't think you do either. It's it's it's

01:06:47: more so like if someone has come into

01:06:49: connection or communion with your topic,

01:06:51: your content, or asked you a question

01:06:54: about something, there is something in

01:06:56: them that knows there's more.

01:06:58: There's something in them that knows that

01:06:59: there is a sense of fulfillment that or

01:07:01: like an itch that they have not been able

01:07:03: to scratch yet, that they want to learn

01:07:05: how to do it. Right. Otherwise, they

01:07:07: would just be tootling off in their own

01:07:09: world, not even anywhere near this kind

01:07:12: of information, because

01:07:13: they'd be whatever, you know.

01:07:16: So I would never ask anybody to do

01:07:19: anything that they aren't already a

01:07:22: little bit interested in doing, even if

01:07:24: they don't realize it. Right. So there's

01:07:27: that. I'll start with

01:07:28: that, like the premise of that.

01:07:31: And coming into the heart space. Yeah, I

01:07:35: forget how people think it's like a woo

01:07:37: woo thing, but it's literally like a

01:07:40: physiological sensation that you can tap

01:07:45: into that then creates literal waves like

01:07:50: waves of coherence that influence the

01:07:54: rest of your body and

01:07:55: the rest of your mind.

01:07:56: So I would always go in with like, let's

01:07:58: just use the concrete, you know,

01:08:02: sciences, the outer sciences to prove to

01:08:05: you first up that this is of benefit on

01:08:08: one level, on like just one, let alone

01:08:10: like it is multidimensional. Right.

01:08:12: And if you can connect in here, oh, wait,

01:08:17: I'm feeling all of these, these, these

01:08:18: things and oh, oh gosh, but I've thought

01:08:21: these things and like they start to come

01:08:23: up against each other. And that opens up

01:08:25: a whole other journey to discover where

01:08:30: it is that you haven't been, you know,

01:08:33: true to yourself,

01:08:34: like your truest essence.

01:08:36: So yeah, I'd probably suggest that there

01:08:39: are benefits that don't make you soft. I

01:08:43: have so many questions. Yes. I'm

01:08:45: intrigued now, but like it also sounds

01:08:47: like empty promises. Like, do you have

01:08:49: some actual, I don't know, results or

01:08:53: like how does it you said like the

01:08:55: frequency and coherence with you?

01:08:57: But like sounds again, like, well, what

01:08:59: are you talking about? I don't know.

01:09:01: That's that you're just like saying some,

01:09:03: some weird words. I don't know how to

01:09:06: relate to like, what does that actually

01:09:08: mean with for me or for other people?

01:09:11: Maybe you work with or like, I don't

01:09:12: know, like I'm open and I'm curious to

01:09:15: like know more about this.

01:09:16: But I'm feeling a lot of resistance when

01:09:18: you're talking about like in these terms,

01:09:20: because I don't know how that feels. I

01:09:22: never experienced any like that. And

01:09:24: like, I, of course, I would like to

01:09:26: improve in my own life. Maybe like there

01:09:28: are things where which aren't perfect,

01:09:30: where I don't feel fulfilled.

01:09:32: Yeah. But I don't know if your way is the

01:09:35: way like, can you maybe give me more like

01:09:37: actual examples from your own life or

01:09:40: from your clients or

01:09:41: like things you saw like,

01:09:43: let's talk, let's talk about like the

01:09:45: core of what, you know, it's actually

01:09:48: happening. And like, do you believe in

01:09:50: electromagnetism, electromagnetic fields?

01:09:54: Do you believe in Wi Fi? Do you believe

01:09:56: that works? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

01:09:59: So you yourself are an electromagnetic

01:10:03: being. It just that is that is truth.

01:10:07: Like it's literally if you plug yourself

01:10:09: into the machines at a hospital, you will

01:10:12: see all kinds of things showing you

01:10:14: various frequencies, wavelengths, and the

01:10:18: information is there.

01:10:19: And you will see it even though you can't

01:10:21: necessarily know that as an animated meat

01:10:26: sack walking through the world, right?

01:10:29: Like you are more than just that. And

01:10:32: people can prove that to

01:10:35: you if you want to see it.

01:10:37: How do I like do we need to feel like how

01:10:40: do I feel that like we were coming from,

01:10:43: okay, I'm like, logically, I'm thinking a

01:10:47: lot, and I'm thinking through problems,

01:10:48: maybe and like that. And you were telling

01:10:51: me, okay, it's more about like feeling

01:10:52: getting into the heart.

01:10:53: And we're like, like, very far into like,

01:10:57: okay, electromagnetic fields, and like,

01:10:59: but like, how does it, how does it marry?

01:11:02: How does it marry? Like, how does it like

01:11:03: what, what, what, okay, I'm here right

01:11:06: now. I am open and curious.

01:11:08: But I don't know how to experience

01:11:11: whatever you're saying, like, because

01:11:13: beliefs, like I have a certain belief

01:11:16: about the world. And maybe the belief is

01:11:18: like, whatever you're talking about,

01:11:19: like, why would I believe that because I

01:11:21: have no proof for this, right?

01:11:22: So in order to gain any proof, I need to

01:11:26: experience that, or I need to hear it

01:11:29: from someone I trust, maybe, you know,

01:11:30: that's how we build most of our beliefs.

01:11:33: But at first, like, okay, let's say I'm

01:11:34: curious and open now to explore that.

01:11:36: But how would I get started? I don't

01:11:38: know. I never, like, just for me

01:11:40: personally, like, now my experience is

01:11:42: that maybe until two years ago, before I

01:11:46: started like, reading more about my own

01:11:49: parents, learning more

01:11:50: about myself, I was very numb.

01:11:51: Like, numb in the sense of I didn't feel

01:11:54: any emotions really was just like very

01:11:57: flat, you know, I wouldn't say it was

01:11:59: depressed necessarily, but just like, I

01:12:02: didn't know how to feel sad.

01:12:04: This year was like the first time where I

01:12:07: cried, like, really many, many years.

01:12:10: Okay. Yeah, you're surprised. But like

01:12:13: many men, especially probably maybe also

01:12:15: women, I can speak for them.

01:12:16: But many men just like live year to year

01:12:20: to year to year and yeah, things suck

01:12:22: maybe, but they love it often. It's like,

01:12:23: you know, especially in Germany, I feel

01:12:25: like a lot of people are making jokes

01:12:26: about the misery because they don't know

01:12:28: how to deal differently with it.

01:12:29: And now I know that it's really important

01:12:33: for me now. That was where you were

01:12:36: tapping in before I took on the critical,

01:12:40: I kind of had of the critical person who

01:12:42: was before the transformation that would

01:12:44: have been me maybe with like 25, 26, 27.

01:12:47: I would be like, very like, who do you

01:12:49: think you're better than me? You're

01:12:50: talking about all these healing things

01:12:52: like, no, like my way,

01:12:53: like, am I worse now, you know?

01:12:55: So I think a lot of people are very can

01:12:58: be very activated when they hear like

01:13:01: someone else talking about like, oh, you

01:13:02: know, just be like energy and light and

01:13:04: whatever. It's like, I'm struggling

01:13:05: really into telling me

01:13:06: about these random things.

01:13:07: Yeah. So I know, tying it back to the to

01:13:11: the emotions that it's so hard to first

01:13:14: feel them and knowing how to tap into

01:13:17: them. And like, since you're working with

01:13:20: women, I don't know if that's something

01:13:21: you have experienced, like because women

01:13:24: tend to easier to tap into the emotions.

01:13:27: You know what, I don't know about that. I

01:13:30: don't know about that. Because I've

01:13:31: again, I feel like with a particularly

01:13:33: Western culture, I can't speak

01:13:35: necessarily for, you know, more Eastern

01:13:38: Southern cultures, the the Western woman

01:13:41: is often numbed out.

01:13:43: And when when numbed and in the in women

01:13:47: and men and when numbed out for so many

01:13:49: reasons, like, literally the traumas,

01:13:52: like not just traumas that we go through.

01:13:55: And sometimes that can be an overused

01:13:57: term. But I truly do believe that we all

01:13:59: in this day and age now experience micro

01:14:02: traumas all day, every day, just through

01:14:04: our phones, just through the television,

01:14:06: just through media and that kind of

01:14:08: thing, like all of that.

01:14:11: You know, it cuts our bodies off because

01:14:14: it's too scary to feel the form, like,

01:14:16: you know, like what we can what we're

01:14:18: witnessing in Gaza and Middle East and

01:14:20: all through it, like there's so many

01:14:22: different on so many

01:14:23: fronts, we see people suffering.

01:14:26: And or we're suffering ourselves that it

01:14:29: can feel completely overwhelming for our

01:14:31: systems, we are paleolithic beings like

01:14:35: Nova system beings living in an

01:14:38: information tech world where we have so

01:14:42: much information flowing at us, we were

01:14:43: not designed to move that through us.

01:14:46: So I believe a coping mechanism is to

01:14:49: create numbness so that we can manage so

01:14:52: that we can manage and move through. And

01:14:54: the numbness piece is one of those

01:14:58: aspects of like the invitation into your

01:15:02: body begins with acknowledging that

01:15:04: numbness, I feel like, like actually even

01:15:06: knowing that you're feeling numb.

01:15:07: And so oftentimes I'll invite people

01:15:10: into, you know, arriving there and and

01:15:15: even engaging with and the term is into

01:15:18: reception is like engaging with what's

01:15:21: going on in your body and like actually

01:15:23: connecting inside, not just on the

01:15:26: surface, but I will take people into,

01:15:28: okay, like, let's just put your hand on

01:15:31: an area of your body and draw them in to

01:15:35: that part of their body.

01:15:37: So they can actually start to feel it.

01:15:39: And then once people experience

01:15:41: something, as you say, then the knowledge

01:15:44: begins to like trickle in and becomes a

01:15:48: knowing, right, rather than just like, I

01:15:51: have to believe this, you know, like,

01:15:53: like, this is a thing that I'm like, I

01:15:55: have no concept of, I can't tap into it.

01:15:58: But when someone actually has that

01:16:01: sensation and starts to feel it, and

01:16:04: usually that will come with release, will

01:16:07: come with some kind of grief and like

01:16:11: whatever has been trapped there.

01:16:13: And most recent research shows that it's

01:16:16: actually the fascia in our body that

01:16:18: holds a lot of this trauma.

01:16:19: So when you go in and you can like gently

01:16:22: release that or like be with that, then

01:16:26: all these sort of trapped things that

01:16:28: you've that have created this

01:16:29: numbness get to be released.

01:16:32: And then you get to actually feel the

01:16:34: brilliance of who you are. And, you know,

01:16:37: like, this is this is like another

01:16:40: invitation for people into their bodies

01:16:42: is that you you contain all of the best

01:16:44: drugs in the world in your body.

01:16:46: All the things that you can supposedly

01:16:49: like take exogenously, you can produce

01:16:52: like DMT, blah, blah, blah, you can

01:16:54: produce and dog in this Lee in your body.

01:16:57: If you will let yourself do that, if you

01:16:59: will let yourself open the cupboard to

01:17:02: it, right? But what's there in the moment

01:17:04: is all kinds of shit that's piled up in

01:17:06: front of the cupboard.

01:17:07: We want to like take that

01:17:09: away and let yourself be free.

01:17:12: That ties wonderfully into something you

01:17:15: said on your Instagram. Oh, and like one

01:17:19: person said, he said, yeah, we don't work

01:17:22: on our inner light to bypass the

01:17:24: darkness, but to navigate through it.

01:17:27: I feel like that ties really well into

01:17:30: what you said just right now is like, we

01:17:32: can produce these like, like positive

01:17:35: experiences for ourselves, but not to

01:17:37: like numbing out and kind of like that's

01:17:39: maybe more where coping

01:17:41: mechanisms come into play, right?

01:17:43: But to really like learn how to navigate

01:17:47: the darkness, in a sense, maybe for

01:17:51: people that means like

01:17:52: uncomfortable feelings.

01:17:54: And I recently just started to not call

01:17:58: them negative emotions,

01:18:00: but like uncomfortable ones.

01:18:02: Because yeah, when we start, I feel like

01:18:05: when we start to embrace all the spectrum

01:18:08: and say like, okay, like I just have to

01:18:11: learn how to deal with

01:18:12: like being sad or angry.

01:18:14: And I accept the fact that this is like a

01:18:17: signpost in my life, which shows me where

01:18:20: to go and where not to go.

01:18:21: And I'm always saying, it's a little bit

01:18:25: like when you put your hand into the

01:18:26: fire, like you feel pain. Why do you feel

01:18:30: pain? Because the

01:18:31: universe wants to punish you?

01:18:34: No, right? It's there for you, actually.

01:18:37: It's like a mechanism to tell you like,

01:18:39: get the fuck out of the fire. Like you're

01:18:42: literally hurting yourself.

01:18:43: You can't use your hand anymore.

01:18:44: If you don't remove that immediately in

01:18:46: the next, I don't know, five to 10

01:18:47: seconds. So the bigger the pain, the

01:18:50: stronger the signal of like this is this

01:18:52: more dangerous potentially

01:18:54: that thing is for you, right?

01:18:55: For your existence, for your body, for

01:18:57: whatever. So and like, yeah, maybe you

01:19:00: can draw the bridge there yourself to the

01:19:03: emotions. What are you teaching? Maybe

01:19:05: your clients? What is your take on that?

01:19:07: Yeah, gosh, I've there's so many things

01:19:10: that I'm thinking of as you speak,

01:19:12: because one thing that came through as

01:19:14: soon as you said that line, because I

01:19:16: think of Thomas Hubel, who is this

01:19:19: amazing man, he's like a

01:19:20: medical doctor and a mystic.

01:19:22: And he does this work for Holocaust

01:19:26: survivors who have endured and like

01:19:29: generational, he will take like an entire

01:19:32: room and help to clear collective trauma

01:19:36: from like epigenetically from the from

01:19:40: the body from like, you know, that the

01:19:42: whole kind of, yeah, my father, son,

01:19:46: blah, blah, blah, like

01:19:47: mother, daughter, everything.

01:19:48: And they he will just, you know, take it,

01:19:50: take it and move it through. And he

01:19:53: writes about because this is like, we're

01:19:55: talking hundreds of people. He has

01:19:57: facilitators. And these facilitators that

01:20:00: he hires that people that he will bring

01:20:02: into his world, he says, they all need to

01:20:06: have anchored their light in their body,

01:20:09: so that they can go into the darkness and

01:20:12: guide these guide people out of that.

01:20:15: And that is like, literally his number

01:20:17: one requirement of his facilitators. He's

01:20:19: like, you've got to know that when you're

01:20:21: going into something like what's yours

01:20:23: and what's not yours, like, that's

01:20:24: another layer of things.

01:20:25: But like, know that because when you

01:20:28: particularly are working with some of the

01:20:30: darkest energies, and the most horrendous

01:20:35: traumas that our human race has ever

01:20:39: seen, you need to know and be certain of

01:20:45: your life so that you can navigate

01:20:46: through the trauma field through the the

01:20:49: generational pain and the hurt because

01:20:52: you know, you have people throwing stuff

01:20:53: at you or like not throwing, but like, people

01:20:54: project because they don't want to own

01:20:57: their stuff and la la la like, you know,

01:20:59: the that that in and of itself is like, I

01:21:02: think one of the best human talents that

01:21:06: we can like aim for is be able to do

01:21:07: that. But like, that's that's for other

01:21:10: people. But for ourselves, when we come

01:21:12: up against the pain,

01:21:14: you're so right like that.

01:21:14: It's a signal. It's not it's not a sign

01:21:18: from the universe. It's not a like

01:21:21: punishment. It's a signal. And there's

01:21:23: usually usually an invitation into

01:21:26: something else. And I feel like there's

01:21:30: an aspect of our Western culture that

01:21:33: does not and will not accept intensity of

01:21:39: any kind that is like, not in the pleasure realm.

01:21:42: Right. I really do firmly believe that

01:21:46: intense pleasure, but not intense non

01:21:48: yes, non pleasure or, you know, even for

01:21:51: instance, like having a fever or a

01:21:54: headache, right? Let's just use that as

01:21:57: an example, like, you know, the fever is

01:21:59: there usually because it's biting off an

01:22:02: infection. What do we do go take some

01:22:04: drugs to stop it? And it's like, what, what? Wait a second. Exactly.

01:22:06: Why? Why are we doing this? Right? Why

01:22:12: can't we be with this sensation? And

01:22:16: again, nuanced, like, nuanced

01:22:17: perspective, of course, if a baby is

01:22:19: running like a 40 plus degree fever, you

01:22:21: know, like, you don't want to go into

01:22:22: febrile fever like this. But it's like,

01:22:24: if you were just have a cold or

01:22:26: something, and you're, you know, you're

01:22:28: fighting off an infection, and you have a

01:22:30: fever, and you can nap and rest and or

01:22:32: have a sleep. Don't take

01:22:34: drugs before you go to sleep.

01:22:36: Or you go to bed, because your body and

01:22:39: its intelligence is trying to do

01:22:41: something for you. And you're stopping

01:22:43: it. And you're saying no, because I can't

01:22:46: endure this thing. Right. And it feels

01:22:49: like that's like a big issue.

01:22:52: I am like, I 100% like, subscribed to

01:22:56: that, because it's like, I don't

01:22:59: understand, like, I remember last last

01:23:02: year, I talked to a nurse and I was not

01:23:04: feeling very well, I had a fever,

01:23:06: actually. And that person was like, like,

01:23:08: she was a nurse in the US. And she was

01:23:10: like saying, like, Oh, no, we have to

01:23:12: bring like, you'd have to take everything

01:23:13: and bring the fever down. I'm like, but

01:23:15: isn't it like good for me to like, I'm

01:23:16: just like waiting it out. And like,

01:23:18: that's you. Because what you said, right?

01:23:21: I'm like, wait, my understanding is like,

01:23:23: helping me help the body to get rid of

01:23:26: bacteria, it's like a natural virus. And

01:23:28: it's nothing like, it's just a very

01:23:30: logical thing for me to think, but she

01:23:32: was like, a nurse in a hospital. And I

01:23:35: was like, wait, what? I don't know, that

01:23:38: was so far away from like my

01:23:40: understanding of like how that works. The

01:23:42: same is like, yeah, when you go here in

01:23:45: Bali, like, you know, Bali belly is a

01:23:47: thing. And people immediately pop like

01:23:49: things for like, against,

01:23:51: like, you know, it comes out everywhere.

01:23:54: But it's like, wait, then you have the

01:23:56: toxic, toxic stuff still in your body.

01:23:58: Don't you want to get rid of it? Like,

01:24:00: that's the natural like you don't, as we

01:24:03: said, like the body is not doing these

01:24:04: things to punish you. But it's there for

01:24:06: a reason, it wants to help you. And I

01:24:08: think this understanding is what I hear

01:24:10: from what you're talking about a lot,

01:24:12: like in, in the emotional stuff also,

01:24:14: like when when some uncomfortable emotion

01:24:17: comes up that it wants to tell you

01:24:19: something, it wants to

01:24:20: help you, your body never

01:24:21: works against you. But it's like the head

01:24:24: or the logical mind, which things that

01:24:28: we're like, you know, you're resisting

01:24:29: what is in this, I think it ties back

01:24:31: really well. But I heard from you in the

01:24:34: beginning when you said, there's 90% is

01:24:36: the heart and 10% is the head. And 90%

01:24:39: Yeah, that the heart is subconscious, or

01:24:42: numbed out or like, you know, put stuffed

01:24:45: away to a certain extent, oftentimes, and

01:24:47: then it tries to bubble up. And there's

01:24:49: like, I'm feeling this. But

01:24:51: the head is like, No, I don't want to

01:24:52: feel this. Yes, I think this is where a

01:24:54: lot of this tension comes from 100% 100%.

01:25:00: And it's the it's our addiction to

01:25:03: comfort and convenience. As, as a as a

01:25:07: Western culture, the comfort and

01:25:09: convenience piece is what is keeping us

01:25:13: from connecting to that uncomfortability,

01:25:17: right? We're addicted to comfort and

01:25:19: convenience. We want it now.

01:25:21: We want it good, we want it to feel good.

01:25:23: So then we stop ourselves from listening

01:25:26: to that, like heart bubbling up when it

01:25:28: wants to bubble up and be like, Nope,

01:25:30: I've got to do things now. And whatever

01:25:32: it is. And then we skate through life and

01:25:38: come across a discomfort. And I just

01:25:40: simply unable to deal. So we stuff it

01:25:43: down. So we ignore it. And then, again,

01:25:46: it's like, you're just leaving that

01:25:47: cupboard full of your

01:25:48: amazing bodily drugs.

01:25:50: And sensations and experiences and just

01:25:53: literal pleasure in your body. You're

01:25:57: just leaving that for like, you know,

01:25:59: what the afterlife? I don't know.

01:26:01: Do you have an example maybe or like in

01:26:03: your own life experience? Like did you go

01:26:06: through that transition of like getting

01:26:08: aware first and then like slowly stepping

01:26:11: into this like, Oh, everything's

01:26:13: happening for me instead of against me

01:26:15: and like this kind of resistance you, you

01:26:17: started to work with it. Like,

01:26:19: Yes.

01:26:19: Can you tell me more about that?

01:26:20: I mean, mine probably happened over, over

01:26:23: several years. There wasn't like one big

01:26:25: aha moment. But I think the when I began

01:26:29: to, in probably around like, actually not

01:26:32: long, late 20s or so I would have had

01:26:35: that experience of like, of starting to

01:26:38: realize, you know, I felt as though the

01:26:41: dark night of a soul kind of came in

01:26:43: around a time called the Saturn Return,

01:26:46: which is your late 20s.

01:26:48: That's like in astrologically, it's when

01:26:49: like things come to the floor and it's

01:26:51: like, here, deal with it, you know, like,

01:26:55: here's your reckoning. And so that all

01:26:57: kind of came about around this time. And

01:27:00: a lot of, yeah, just like really

01:27:03: emotional things like a breakup of a long

01:27:05: term relationship that I thought was

01:27:06: going to be it and la la la and all of

01:27:08: these things kind of brought me into a

01:27:11: space of realization of, hey, wait a

01:27:13: second, maybe you need to stop blaming

01:27:15: all of the things that you

01:27:16: have set up in your life.

01:27:18: I guess to so called satisfy you, you

01:27:21: know, and we get we in our culture, we

01:27:23: get taught that if we line all your ducks

01:27:25: up in a row, maybe that's an Australian

01:27:27: saying, I don't know.

01:27:28: When you get the help, get the partner,

01:27:32: get the house, get the great job, get the

01:27:34: blah, blah, blah, then you're supposed to

01:27:36: feel amazing. Right. And then when you

01:27:41: get all the things, that's when people

01:27:43: come to me, they're like, I got all the

01:27:45: things, but I still feel like,

01:27:46: I still feel unfulfilled. I still feel

01:27:49: like crap. And when I began to kind of

01:27:52: pull apart all these things that I put my

01:27:54: value into, like how things appeared in

01:27:56: my life or how things looked to people

01:27:58: and started to turn within and go, how do

01:28:01: I feel about my life?

01:28:03: How do I feel about things?

01:28:04: That's when things started to shift,

01:28:06: because I was like, well, gosh, society

01:28:09: is a bit psycho. It's a bit crazy because

01:28:12: it would prefer for someone to say be in

01:28:15: a in a in a marriage with a house in the

01:28:19: two point for kids or whatever it is,

01:28:21: picket fence and look fine.

01:28:23: Yeah. Right. But God knows what's going

01:28:26: on behind doors. And I know what's going

01:28:28: on behind a lot of those doors. And it is

01:28:31: not great, like abuse and all kinds of

01:28:34: things happening between people. And but

01:28:37: society is happier with that.

01:28:38: But say a single woman in her thirties

01:28:42: and forties or whatever who's like, like,

01:28:44: oh, my God, that's it. There's a what?

01:28:47: Like someone who's fulfilling themselves

01:28:49: and and living the life of their dreams,

01:28:52: but isn't doing all of these things.

01:28:55: Society is like, oh, wait a second.

01:28:56: That doesn't that doesn't match up with

01:28:59: what we think is success. And I started

01:29:01: to think to myself, wait, this is no, I'm

01:29:04: not going to listen to society anymore.

01:29:06: You're fucking crazy. Like literally. So

01:29:08: then that's when I started to listen to

01:29:10: my soul and myself far more and let that

01:29:13: guide me in a way that was so much more

01:29:17: true to myself and saw my

01:29:21: world completely open up.

01:29:22: Like literally soullet. I mean, that led

01:29:26: to me writing my blog. I started doing

01:29:29: that in my early thirties. That was while

01:29:31: I was still working in international aid

01:29:33: and development, like working on programs

01:29:35: and projects across the world. But that

01:29:37: was my like, that was my career.

01:29:39: And I started writing. And when you put

01:29:42: yourself out in the world, you put your

01:29:43: like little flag of weird out in the

01:29:45: world, you start to attract all of the

01:29:48: things that are true for you. You put the

01:29:51: signal out there of this is who I am.

01:29:55: And then people start to and yeah, my

01:29:59: whole my whole world changed. Like it

01:30:01: within a year and a half, I had said

01:30:04: goodbye to like a decade's long career in

01:30:07: that world and leapt into this world of,

01:30:12: you know, guiding people via soul and

01:30:14: coaching and mentoring and everything.

01:30:14: And that's been like nine years later,

01:30:17: you know, like literally how, yeah, how

01:30:21: much can you how much more proof do you

01:30:22: need to kind of say like, Holy moly, like

01:30:24: when you start listening to yourself and

01:30:26: you start listening to the trueness of

01:30:27: what's the message that's coming through,

01:30:31: how much magic can ensue.

01:30:33: Beautiful. And I think it ties back

01:30:36: wonderfully into what we said in the

01:30:38: beginning. Well, like, I asked these like

01:30:40: questions of like, yeah, I'm skeptical.

01:30:43: What is like, like, why would I do this?

01:30:45: Why would I do that? I think like the

01:30:47: experience for a lot of people is that

01:30:50: they're wearing a mask, right? And that

01:30:52: they're not showing their

01:30:53: authentic true self. Yeah.

01:30:54: And it's certainly true for the nice guys

01:30:57: and people please I'm working with, and

01:30:59: then probably also for the women you're

01:31:01: working with, where you said like,

01:31:03: they're so caught up like, like, like,

01:31:06: influenced by society, that they just

01:31:09: don't know what they really want. Because

01:31:12: they're like, the brain kind of also

01:31:16: wants to keep them safe. And that means

01:31:20: not leaving the comfort zone of like,

01:31:21: maybe going against the

01:31:23: group, and maybe doing something.

01:31:25: Yeah, which is like not the norm, as you

01:31:28: said. And yeah, but many people then

01:31:31: realize at some point, oh, wait, maybe

01:31:36: that's not it. No, yeah, exactly.

01:31:37: So that kind of like, okay, I, I'm a firm

01:31:43: believer, though, you know, like, a lot

01:31:46: of people are then maybe they listen to

01:31:48: this podcast also or to other stuff. And

01:31:49: I'm like, Oh, my God, I wish I would have

01:31:51: figured this out five years earlier or 10

01:31:53: years earlier, that would have been so much better.

01:31:54: But I think it's, again, the brain, which

01:31:58: tries to make sense of things. And then

01:32:00: it's, it's not helping you again, because

01:32:04: I think like you have to go through these

01:32:06: experiences. And you need some time for

01:32:08: all of this. And you if, as you said,

01:32:12: people wouldn't have lined up all the

01:32:14: ducks, they wouldn't have had the house,

01:32:16: the kid and whatever, like all the things

01:32:17: which society maybe told them will make them happy.

01:32:19: Without that experience, they wouldn't

01:32:22: have come to the realization that it's

01:32:25: not that because they would always be the

01:32:28: nagging voice. Maybe it would make me

01:32:31: happy if I would have the house, right? I

01:32:32: mean, it's the same with.

01:32:35: Yeah, it's the same with money, right?

01:32:36: Celebrities, people always like, yeah,

01:32:37: no, I would be so happy. I wouldn't have

01:32:39: any problems when I would be famous and

01:32:41: rich, you know, I don't understand their

01:32:44: problem. Like, I don't understand them. People are so obnoxious.

01:32:45: People are so obnoxious. I don't know,

01:32:48: like they, it's this empathy missing

01:32:51: sometimes. But it's, it's also like, I

01:32:53: understand because the personal

01:32:55: experience is not there. They only see it

01:32:58: through their lens of

01:32:59: their experience now.

01:33:01: And when they can't afford to buy

01:33:02: certain, like the bills right now. And of

01:33:05: course, all of their problems right now

01:33:06: would be fixed with more money. Right?

01:33:09: Yeah. Yeah. The head and the heart.

01:33:10: Right. It's a big, big topic.

01:33:15: I was gonna, I want to pick up on exactly

01:33:17: something that you just said then, which

01:33:19: is like not having those experiences,

01:33:22: that the experience of lining your ducks

01:33:24: up in the row. If you don't have them,

01:33:26: that experience of, of, of ticking boxes

01:33:29: that you think you need to tick.

01:33:31: And then arriving at the other side and

01:33:33: going, Oh, that wasn't it. You don't,

01:33:36: that's like, and that's your initiation.

01:33:39: Like it's literally your initiation. So,

01:33:42: you know, saying, Oh, I wish I'd done

01:33:43: this five, 10 years ago.

01:33:45: Like, no, you were going through your

01:33:46: initiation to arrive in this place.

01:33:49: Right? And without it, yeah, you would

01:33:52: still probably be chasing all that. It

01:33:54: must be in there. It must

01:33:55: be in that. It must be in.

01:33:56: And I can't remember who said this, but I

01:34:00: heard it like a few weeks ago and I

01:34:01: thought, that is brilliant. It was like,

01:34:03: you know, what I wish for you is that you

01:34:07: get your dreams really quickly so that

01:34:11: you know that it was never those things.

01:34:14: It wasn't that never the dream. It was

01:34:16: never the dream. Yeah. Yeah. And it's

01:34:19: like, you can get to the other side of

01:34:21: that. So you can realize what really

01:34:23: matters. Really, ultimately.

01:34:24: Like that's like, that was like their

01:34:26: deepest wish. It's like that it happens

01:34:28: faster for you, you know, because it's

01:34:30: like, not in the way that you think not

01:34:31: in the, Oh my gosh, your wildest dreams,

01:34:33: because like, then you just seem to be

01:34:34: happy forever and ever. Amen.

01:34:36: It's so that you can realize that was not

01:34:38: what you were actually looking for. And

01:34:40: like, really most deeply, it's the

01:34:44: experience, the initiation and who you

01:34:46: become, who you become as a result of

01:34:50: having done these things.

01:34:51: Yeah. That may, yeah, that also kind of

01:34:55: answers the questions, the question from

01:34:57: the beginning where we said like, okay,

01:34:59: that how like we talked about like

01:35:01: sensations and emotions and like feeling

01:35:03: these things and going like, and it

01:35:05: sounded very like unspecific.

01:35:07: And I feel like now we got more into the

01:35:09: round, like, like, you know, think which

01:35:13: everybody can relate to. Yes. And it's

01:35:15: not so much like the terminology is like

01:35:17: very common for everyone. Yeah.

01:35:21: And this is kind of a thing, right? You

01:35:23: probably people start to feel and was

01:35:25: certainly my experience when I think

01:35:26: about other people's experience, people

01:35:28: start to focus less on their head and

01:35:31: start to like, search for different ways

01:35:34: and then maybe start listening to the

01:35:35: heart more when they have these gathered

01:35:38: all these other things they wanted

01:35:40: together and then feel like, okay, it

01:35:42: wasn't that like from a logical

01:35:44: perspective, I got everything.

01:35:45: So why would I keep listening to my brain

01:35:49: telling me to achieve another car or

01:35:53: another whatever, like, you know, I did

01:35:55: all this and I got disappointed,

01:35:57: disappointed, disappointed. And then it's

01:35:59: like, okay, maybe now it's

01:36:00: time to listen to the heart.

01:36:01: Yes, you need to get exhausted, your

01:36:04: brain needs to get exhausted, you need to

01:36:06: hit like a fuck it moment, a full fuck it

01:36:09: moment. And then that's usually when the

01:36:12: surrender into something else happens,

01:36:14: like surrender into,

01:36:15: there's got to be something else.

01:36:17: But you got to exhaust that, that brain

01:36:19: that mind. And that's what these

01:36:22: experiences do it exhausts. And then it's

01:36:25: like, okay, what else in this usually

01:36:28: like looking up to the to the heavens and

01:36:31: then then real journey begins.

01:36:34: That's wonderful. I have another, another

01:36:36: post from your Instagram, I really liked

01:36:39: some of the, there were a lot of really

01:36:41: nice nuggets, Instagram will also be in

01:36:44: the bio for everyone listening.

01:36:48: What if you stopped judging yourself for

01:36:51: your productivity and started measuring

01:36:54: success by how you live your values

01:36:56: daily. And that's such a powerful

01:37:00: reframe, right away from what we were

01:37:02: talking about, basically, this Western

01:37:04: mindset of like the, the productivity,

01:37:07: the success of like your,

01:37:09: the specific feasible outcome.

01:37:13: Right, all the ducks basically you're

01:37:15: lining up and then starting to measure

01:37:18: success maybe by how you live your values

01:37:21: daily, how to maybe how open you, you

01:37:24: share your heart how not close down you

01:37:26: are and like, yeah, maybe more on an

01:37:29: emotional level than the logical level.

01:37:31: So how did you come to that insight?

01:37:34: I think it's, it's along the same lines

01:37:38: of, of, of turning it from how does

01:37:41: everything look to on the outside and

01:37:45: like the output, how does everything look

01:37:48: and, and turning it back into the things

01:37:53: that you can control.

01:37:53: And also the, the, the fleeting nature of

01:38:01: external outputs as well, right? You have

01:38:04: an external output and you can feel like,

01:38:06: all right, boom, I got that

01:38:07: thing done or whatever it is.

01:38:09: And it will always be onto the next,

01:38:11: right? You're always onto the next, which

01:38:13: is great. I mean, like,

01:38:14: that's just how life is.

01:38:15: But when you turn it internally and you

01:38:18: turn it into this values exploration of,

01:38:21: oh, okay. So when I was asked a question

01:38:24: today and I was able to open in my truth

01:38:26: and speak something and have the hard

01:38:29: conversation, oh, like, you know, that,

01:38:32: that's aligned with

01:38:32: my value of truth, say.

01:38:35: And, or the, when I went to have a

01:38:40: massage and, you know, relaxed, that is

01:38:44: my value of body care. Like I'm, I'm a

01:38:47: huge, like, that's my, my, my big, you

01:38:49: know, a proponent of

01:38:50: that for everyone really.

01:38:53: And when I went out and connected with

01:38:56: the earth, like, that's, that's my value

01:38:59: of like reverence for creation and all of

01:39:02: that sort of thing, right? All of that

01:39:04: stuff that can never

01:39:06: be taken away from us.

01:39:09: It's always adding, it is always adding

01:39:12: to us and to our souls and to the

01:39:16: richness of us as a human being.

01:39:20: And it's not fleeting. It only builds and

01:39:23: builds and builds upon itself rather than

01:39:26: like, you know, all of the outputs and

01:39:28: things that we can achieve externally.

01:39:31: This is, this is really increasing the

01:39:33: richness of who we are daily. It's like

01:39:36: adding to that bank account daily and it

01:39:38: gets better and better and

01:39:39: you get better and better.

01:39:40: What I'm hearing here is like looking

01:39:42: inside instead of outside is like a big,

01:39:46: the big topic, basically a big theme,

01:39:48: which I'm hearing through everything.

01:39:49: And I agree 100% with like so many of

01:39:53: these, these things you're saying,

01:39:56: because like two different people, for

01:39:59: example, can see the same objective

01:40:02: reality and have a

01:40:05: completely different view on that.

01:40:07: I remember one study, I'm just, I have to

01:40:09: think about it. It was about optimism,

01:40:11: pessimism, which is like the most, like,

01:40:13: you know, maybe some people believe in

01:40:15: it, maybe some don't

01:40:16: or something like that.

01:40:16: But there was one, one study where they

01:40:22: had people walking down the hallway, like

01:40:24: some, some, some hallway.

01:40:26: And at the end of that, there was a

01:40:28: doctor's office and they told people,

01:40:30: okay, the test kind of is in the doctor

01:40:32: of in the doctor's office, they have to

01:40:34: answer some questions and they had to.

01:40:38: But the real test was on the way to the

01:40:40: doctor's office where they halfway like

01:40:43: hit a $10 bill

01:40:44: somewhere. You know about it?

01:40:45: And I don't know, but I've heard similar,

01:40:47: I don't friggin love it.

01:40:48: Yeah. And it's basically the questions in

01:40:50: the doctor's office was just to kind of

01:40:53: see how people thought about themselves,

01:40:56: how lucky or non lucky, you

01:40:58: know, they saw themselves.

01:40:59: And the people who said about themselves

01:41:02: that they are lucky, we're way more

01:41:04: likely to find the $10 bill, which is so

01:41:07: interesting to see right that you're when

01:41:09: you're focusing on the good things and

01:41:11: stuff like that, then the good things

01:41:13: also happen to you maybe.

01:41:14: But like, it's really, it comes from the

01:41:18: inside, right? It's not on the outside

01:41:19: was the same. That's

01:41:21: what I'm saying here.

01:41:21: The outside that the $10 bill was the

01:41:23: same for everyone. But like, your

01:41:26: subjective reality was very much for

01:41:28: these people was very much

01:41:29: shaped by the internal reality.

01:41:32: Oh, I love this because this is the

01:41:36: objective reality doesn't exist. Like,

01:41:38: and it's particularly in a space of like

01:41:42: the quantum mechanic realm that you are,

01:41:45: you are literally, you know, you were in

01:41:47: glasses, I'm wearing contacts.

01:41:49: Your inner state is like whatever, like

01:41:52: you, whatever glasses you choose to put

01:41:53: on that day. If you choose to put on like

01:41:55: seriously dark block, dark glasses, I,

01:41:59: you have an inner world that's like,

01:42:00: everything is shit and everything bad

01:42:03: always happens to me, blah, blah, blah.

01:42:04: Like you literally going to walk out and

01:42:06: probably stumble over something because

01:42:08: you can't see, but that's the world

01:42:10: you're going to see. And that is

01:42:12: literally how we are internally creates a

01:42:16: fractal of reality that we then see

01:42:19: reflected back to us when

01:42:20: we go out into the world.

01:42:21: Right. And I know like that's mind

01:42:24: bending and you know, for people who are

01:42:27: skeptical, it's going to be really hard

01:42:29: to swallow, but it's like, that's

01:42:30: literally it. And like that simple

01:42:32: experiment is such a good way of

01:42:35: demonstrating the truth of it.

01:42:38: It's like, you will see it or you will

01:42:39: not see it depending on

01:42:41: where you're at internally.

01:42:44: Yeah. It's in so many ways, right? It

01:42:46: ties into victim mentality. If people

01:42:48: victimizing themselves, like I have to

01:42:51: think about this other study, I think

01:42:53: where they told people, okay, you're

01:42:56: going to have some interview for a job,

01:42:59: but we're going to paint some facial

01:43:01: disfigurements on your face.

01:43:03: And we want to kind of like see how much

01:43:07: that, you know, if people are biased when

01:43:10: someone has a facial disfigurement, like

01:43:11: a scar or like some stuff like that, and

01:43:14: they're not like looking maybe as

01:43:16: beautiful or whatever conventionally.

01:43:18: And the twist though, was that a second

01:43:22: before the person would go into the

01:43:24: actual interview room, they would say,

01:43:26: like, okay, let's just brush it up a

01:43:27: little bit. Like, let's make it final.

01:43:28: They removed the disfigurement, but the

01:43:31: person going into the interview room

01:43:32: still thought it's there. And afterwards

01:43:35: they would interview, like after the job

01:43:37: interview, they would

01:43:38: ask them some questions.

01:43:40: And the person was saying like, oh yeah,

01:43:43: I heard many, like in several occasions

01:43:45: through the interview, the person would

01:43:47: basically make comments about my

01:43:50: disfigurements, which

01:43:51: wasn't there anymore.

01:43:52: So it was just the, again, where the

01:43:55: focus goes, like, you know, when you

01:43:57: focus on, oh my God, that person is like

01:43:59: talking about my facial disfigurement,

01:44:02: which literally wasn't there anymore.

01:44:04: But just the focus shaped the reality of

01:44:07: what the person experienced in that

01:44:10: moment. And that is so much. And then of

01:44:12: course, if you focus on that, like, how,

01:44:16: I don't know, bad, like your experience

01:44:19: with, I don't know, I'm talking a lot

01:44:21: about like the gender war.

01:44:21: Basically men against women and how

01:44:24: dangerous men are all like, you know,

01:44:27: that's like a big topic and then, right,

01:44:30: men are predators, men

01:44:31: are toxic. So I think that.

01:44:33: So if you focus on this all the time,

01:44:35: like, then you will also weigh more, are

01:44:38: way more likely, I

01:44:39: think, to attract that.

01:44:40: 100%. Because I mean, the saying is like,

01:44:43: people will rise or fall to your

01:44:45: expectations. And that's so true. And I

01:44:48: love that you bring that up, like the

01:44:50: so-called gender wars.

01:44:52: And it's funny because I don't really go

01:44:53: down those echo chambers

01:44:55: of the internet so much.

01:44:57: And because I really do believe there's

01:45:00: like such a beautiful nuance to this that

01:45:02: like, yes, there's a reckoning happening

01:45:04: where, you know, we had the Me Too

01:45:06: movement and all of that.

01:45:07: And like the women, like finally

01:45:09: recognizing that they can speak out about

01:45:11: atrocities that have

01:45:12: happened against them.

01:45:14: But yeah, it seems like the pendulum

01:45:15: sometimes has swung the other way. And I

01:45:17: think it's not just in the way that it's

01:45:20: being perceived. It's like in the in the

01:45:22: oh, my gosh, like

01:45:23: women are hating on men.

01:45:24: It's more so like that there is this

01:45:29: emphasis. It's like it's like an

01:45:31: inability to deal with nuance and

01:45:35: multidimensional things.

01:45:37: And, you know, like, it's like it's not

01:45:38: men that are toxic. It's toxic

01:45:40: masculinity. It's behavior. That's

01:45:43: behavior. That's the toxic aspect.

01:45:44: And we've got it on both sides. But it

01:45:47: just so happens that, yeah, the

01:45:49: overwhelming majority of

01:45:51: violence is perpetrated by men.

01:45:53: And or, you know, like there has been a

01:45:55: reckoning that's had to happen. But the

01:45:57: pendulum is swinging in a direction that,

01:45:59: yes, not is not helpful or or helpfully

01:46:03: instructive to our youth.

01:46:06: Right. Because of these perceptions that

01:46:09: of being this way as a man is

01:46:12: unacceptable or being this

01:46:14: way as a man is unacceptable.

01:46:15: So it's sort of like where where where

01:46:18: are you? You know, and

01:46:19: that's the challenge, I think.

01:46:22: I feel like it's tied back to like people

01:46:24: are searching on the outside again, like

01:46:26: what kind of behavior is good, what kind

01:46:28: of behavior is bad or something like this

01:46:29: instead of looking again on the inside of

01:46:32: like what feels good, what feels bad.

01:46:33: I believe that, I mean, every human

01:46:36: always wants to be good. I feel like

01:46:40: nobody steps out the door in the morning.

01:46:42: I was like, today I'm going to be an

01:46:43: asshole. Like, you know, like everybody

01:46:45: has the guys on the really loud bikes

01:46:47: that ride through at 2 a.m. here in Bali.

01:46:50: Exactly. Exactly.

01:46:51: Today, tonight I'm going to be an

01:46:52: asshole. That is true. They're the only

01:46:56: exception. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:46:57: But as you said, like it's so much nuance

01:47:00: in the whole topic that there's a lot of

01:47:04: guys like me in the past which then take

01:47:07: these messages which are like men are

01:47:09: toxic, men are like predators, men are

01:47:11: like so dangerous, really too hard.

01:47:13: And then come to the conclusion to not

01:47:17: wanting to hurt anybody and then not even

01:47:20: like approach women anymore or like being

01:47:23: so afraid of communicating romantic

01:47:25: interest because the head is so much

01:47:27: stronger than the heart and the heart

01:47:28: kind of feels the pull towards it.

01:47:29: Maybe she's attractive and attracted to

01:47:32: her energy. Like maybe house, of course,

01:47:34: in the beginning, maybe like how she

01:47:36: looks physically, but then you're

01:47:37: attracted to like how she is like how she

01:47:40: behaves, her energy, how she feels.

01:47:41: And you just feel that, but you're like,

01:47:44: oh my God, I can't do this. Like I was

01:47:46: like, I can't go there because I'm too

01:47:49: afraid of that. I'm stepping over a

01:47:51: boundary from her because I hear all

01:47:52: these stories from all the women online

01:47:54: all the time that they're like getting

01:47:57: like so uncomfortable

01:47:58: when men approach them.

01:48:00: And you see all the gym content of like

01:48:02: where they women film themselves, like

01:48:04: where men, I don't know if you went down

01:48:06: these, but it's like what many men just

01:48:08: get automatically like thrown like into

01:48:10: their into their feet.

01:48:12: It's like basically women filming

01:48:13: themselves in the gym and kind of sitting

01:48:17: on the men looking at them, for example.

01:48:19: And it's like, it really feels wrong in a

01:48:22: sense. Like, of course, as you said,

01:48:24: there's always like me too and everything

01:48:25: happened for a reason, right? And there

01:48:27: are things to point out. But as you said,

01:48:30: the pendulum swung, maybe swung too far.

01:48:34: Yeah. And now, like, I think a majority

01:48:38: of the women also doesn't take ownership

01:48:40: for their own behaviors or like when it

01:48:43: comes to like the what you what we said

01:48:46: talked about before was the subjective

01:48:49: view on like that now all the women, like

01:48:53: not all the women, but like a majority of

01:48:55: women thinks the world is such a

01:48:57: dangerous place, even though from

01:49:00: statistics, it's like one

01:49:01: of the most safe places ever.

01:49:03: But just because we are in these echo

01:49:05: chambers and social media and everything

01:49:07: just like, read, like, introduces this

01:49:10: thought into our head that men are so

01:49:11: dangerous and everything is so like, you

01:49:13: know, and then we all become kind of like

01:49:15: pessimists, like the people in the going

01:49:17: down the hallway, and we're not or in

01:49:19: that case, we see the $10 bill, but

01:49:20: instead of $10 and something positive is

01:49:22: like, he said something really like, bad.

01:49:26: I don't know what I mean. Yeah, yeah.

01:49:29: Like something which makes me feel bad.

01:49:32: 100%. I have a question for you, though.

01:49:35: Yeah, I hear you. And like, you know, we

01:49:37: there's so many different ways that that

01:49:39: it the behaviors of and like the way that

01:49:43: women on I guess on social media have

01:49:46: communicated, like that. Oh, my God, how

01:49:49: dare a man even approach me?

01:49:52: The goal of it, right? And that you can

01:49:55: feel like you feel like as though you

01:49:57: don't want to overstep a boundary

01:49:59: overstep a mark just by going up to a

01:50:01: woman. But how much of it is concerned

01:50:03: for overstepping a boundary? And how much

01:50:06: of it is the potential sensation of

01:50:09: rejection in your body?

01:50:11: If you do experience that?

01:50:14: I think it is, you can go down layers of

01:50:19: it. What I discovered for me is like, the

01:50:23: upper layer, the first layer kind of is

01:50:26: like, the fear of being like, yeah, of

01:50:32: hurting someone else of doing something

01:50:34: to her or something like that. But

01:50:36: ultimately below that is the fear of

01:50:39: being seen as a bad person. And not

01:50:42: wanting to be a bad person.

01:50:42: Not wanting to be seen as some toxic guy

01:50:46: or some asshole. So the time, the own

01:50:52: worth towards like an opinion from

01:50:54: someone else and not like having this you

01:51:00: were talking about this strong light

01:51:01: within ourselves, right? But having this

01:51:03: enough self esteem or self worth within

01:51:07: us or within me in that case, where I'm,

01:51:10: I was like very, like,

01:51:12: I don't want to go down the rabbit hole

01:51:19: because that is like a very strong thing

01:51:21: then why, because I think that's

01:51:22: generational. This is like, we can talk

01:51:24: about where this came from, and like,

01:51:26: over like grandparents to parents to

01:51:28: like, why more and more men are feeling

01:51:31: like that way. But ultimately, I think

01:51:35: all the things we touched on before in

01:51:38: the podcast, help also working through

01:51:41: these kind of patterns.

01:51:42: Because the first step having the

01:51:46: awareness and looking inside and

01:51:48: connecting more to the heart will lead to

01:51:50: a more strong understanding of yourself

01:51:54: and definitely helps with not being too

01:51:57: connected to the other like order not

01:51:59: connecting your own self worth and self

01:52:02: confidence and stuff like that to the

01:52:03: other person's opinion.

01:52:04: Like, it takes a while, you know, and

01:52:07: slow, it's a slow process. It is. But

01:52:10: it's really like, it's really the way for

01:52:14: me it was a way for me to go through to

01:52:16: start tapping out of that because of what

01:52:18: you said with like authenticity starts

01:52:21: with knowing what you want and knowing

01:52:22: what you want starts with like, not

01:52:24: necessarily with the head, the head only,

01:52:27: I feel like makes reasons for why the

01:52:30: heart already decided.

01:52:31: Like the heart already decided. Yeah, and

01:52:34: we can really most of the time when the

01:52:36: head tries to go a different route, it

01:52:39: just crashes at some point, you're like,

01:52:41: fuck, I can't do it. Yes,

01:52:42: it's not possible. Exactly.

01:52:43: And then you go back to the route where

01:52:45: the heart already decided this is the way

01:52:47: to go. Yes. There's like so many fears

01:52:49: before that. Yeah. Learning the skills,

01:52:52: as you said, with the other guy with the

01:52:54: works with the Holocaust. Yeah.

01:52:57: Yeah, like the generational pain and

01:52:59: stuff like that, that people learn to go

01:53:03: through the discomfort, like that, too.

01:53:05: What you said in Instagram, also that

01:53:07: there is the discomfort of the fear and

01:53:10: that listening to what is my true self

01:53:13: saying where I want to be, what is what

01:53:16: does feel aligned in that moment.

01:53:18: And then seeing that we keep at what are

01:53:21: these patterns of fear which are layered

01:53:23: above and holding me off from that. Yeah.

01:53:26: And where I'm at. And it's such a

01:53:28: complicated field. It's huge. It's huge.

01:53:31: And I think, like, ultimately, when when

01:53:34: you're, you know, at the gym or whatever,

01:53:36: wherever, and like, feeling like your

01:53:39: heart saying, oh, you know, I like the

01:53:42: light in this other person.

01:53:43: I love that. I like this, this, this. And

01:53:47: it feels right to go, to go and say

01:53:50: hello. I bet you ultimately can be okay

01:53:54: with yourself. After that interaction,

01:53:59: right? Like, that's the place we want to

01:54:00: get to is that that we're

01:54:03: okay, no matter what. Yeah.

01:54:06: Either way, the woman looks up and smiles

01:54:10: and says, no, thank you. Or does

01:54:13: something not very nice or does whatever.

01:54:15: It's like, you're gonna be okay. Right?

01:54:18: Could I still love myself? Yeah. When,

01:54:22: whatever worst case, she rejects me in a

01:54:25: very negative way, even because she's

01:54:27: projecting whatever her fears onto that

01:54:30: interaction or what she saw in content,

01:54:32: all people always get hit

01:54:33: on. And then she's like, yeah.

01:54:35: Yeah. So yeah, I could still love myself.

01:54:38: And can I still be a safe place to land

01:54:41: within myself? Right? Because I think,

01:54:46: ultimately, we are our own worst critics.

01:54:51: And not as a critic, but like actually

01:54:52: abusers. Like we we have, we take those

01:54:55: abusive, abusive words that, you know,

01:54:57: we've usually absorbed from

01:54:58: culture or family or whatever.

01:54:59: And we are the ones who will be the first

01:55:02: ones to like, abuse ourselves. If that

01:55:06: interaction doesn't go the way we would

01:55:08: like. And that's where we need to look at

01:55:11: the interaction. It's like, can we be the

01:55:14: safe place for ourselves to land and be

01:55:19: okay with no matter how that how that

01:55:22: interaction plays out? Am I okay?

01:55:26: Yeah, right. Like, these questions are

01:55:28: like, the ultimate and then we're gonna

01:55:30: stop projecting onto each other all the

01:55:33: time. You know, Amen.

01:55:36: Let's just own ourselves and own it.

01:55:39: Yeah. Oh my god, that's, that's such a

01:55:42: big, there's so many big topics we could

01:55:44: dive more into. But I think I want to get

01:55:49: to the end here. And I was thinking, if

01:55:54: you if you could offer,

01:55:55: one piece of advice to anyone listening,

01:56:00: men or women, they don't live their

01:56:02: authentic self really, they don't know,

01:56:05: like how how to get started. Like, how do

01:56:08: you how do you start on that journey kind

01:56:12: of like we tap them in a little bit. But

01:56:14: like, what are the concrete

01:56:15: first steps, maybe I could take

01:56:17: to on the journey to finding your

01:56:20: authentic find your more authenticity,

01:56:22: like to find more fulfillment, maybe

01:56:25: through awesome authenticity, right?

01:56:27: Because people first of all, look for

01:56:30: like, okay, things like I lined up my

01:56:31: decks, as you said, and then it's not

01:56:33: there. Like, how do I get started? Like,

01:56:35: maybe people who like listen to the

01:56:37: conversation, like, oh, yeah, there were

01:56:38: some nice nuggets in there. Yep. How can I get started?

01:56:40: I would suggest beginning with curiosity.

01:56:46: Curiosity full stop curiosity and

01:56:49: experimentation, like take the pressure

01:56:51: off yourself to have to find a thing and

01:56:55: to have like the thing that you find to

01:56:57: be the very first thing that you have,

01:56:59: you know, again, it's like, like not

01:57:01: wanting to endure discomfort or

01:57:02: intensity. It's like, can we go back to

01:57:06: our childlike cells, which we still all have within us, we all have.

01:57:07: Children, can we go back there and tap

01:57:14: into what is it that little Frederick

01:57:16: enjoyed? What is it that little Carly

01:57:17: enjoyed? Like really, like with

01:57:19: unencumbered without any expectation,

01:57:22: what were you doing as a kid? Like, start

01:57:26: there, start with the lightness, the

01:57:29: enthusiasm, the curiosity. And, you know,

01:57:33: this, these, the threads that run from

01:57:35: our childhood, do you think that you're doing?

01:57:37: Usually still ring true in adulthood,

01:57:40: right? It could be, you know, like,

01:57:42: evolved and enhanced and, you know, like,

01:57:45: it's probably gonna add complexities and

01:57:47: stuff. But like, go back to the essence

01:57:48: of who you were when you arrived on this

01:57:52: planet. And what did you really, really

01:57:53: enjoy doing? Did you enjoy dress ups? Did

01:57:55: you enjoy dancing? Did you enjoy, you

01:57:58: know, running around in the field,

01:58:01: playing with whatever?

01:58:02: It's like, can you let yourself be in a

01:58:07: phase of experimentation and curiosity in

01:58:09: your life to discover what truly lights

01:58:13: you up? Because it could be something

01:58:15: that you have not done in decades. And

01:58:18: you haven't allowed yourself to. And even

01:58:21: starting with a prompt, like, if I could

01:58:23: do anything, you know, play, do, like,

01:58:29: try anything, what would it be?

01:58:32: And let yourself follow that. And maybe

01:58:34: it leads down a path of like, Oh, yeah, I

01:58:36: don't really enjoy that anymore.

01:58:37: Whatever, like, sort of failure. You're

01:58:39: curious, you're experimenting, let

01:58:41: yourself interact with the world in a way

01:58:44: that is that childlike curiosity.

01:58:46: And discover when that thrum in your

01:58:51: body, hopefully it's in your body, like

01:58:54: starts to light up with like, I really

01:58:57: love that. I really enjoyed that thing.

01:59:00: You get to build on that. And then

01:59:02: usually when you can sort of start to do

01:59:04: more of those things, other things arrive

01:59:08: into your life, other activities, people,

01:59:10: events, start to magnetise, you know,

01:59:13: we're using that sort of the cognitive

01:59:14: bias towards positivity.

01:59:15: Towards, you know, curiosity, other

01:59:20: things will begin to arrive and you can

01:59:22: follow them as they arrive rather than

01:59:25: powering your own momentum all the time.

01:59:27: Like you get to work with the universe,

01:59:29: you get to work with the world as it

01:59:31: presents stuff to you, right?

01:59:34: Otherwise, we're approaching like the

01:59:37: self feeling journey the same way as work

01:59:39: again, like through the head, like I make

01:59:41: my 10 step plan of like, like shifting

01:59:43: the whole thing. And I like, yeah, I like

01:59:47: that a lot what you said, because it

01:59:48: allows yourself to also start feeling a

01:59:51: little bit, because the decision of what

01:59:53: you really want to do

01:59:54: doesn't come from the head.

01:59:55: Maybe the head wants to overthink also,

01:59:57: that's probably good to observe. It's

01:59:59: like, okay, what is my initial feeling

02:00:03: and instinct? And does my head

02:00:04: immediately come in and say like, Oh, no,

02:00:06: but you have to work or you have to do

02:00:07: this or you shouldn't do that, like, you

02:00:09: know, and it's like, oh, like just think

02:00:11: this is the awareness where everything

02:00:12: starts with of like, and then you already

02:00:15: and then you believe that then you can

02:00:17: listen to the podcast again from the

02:00:19: beginning, then you understand it way

02:00:20: more like, now when you started doing

02:00:23: this, it's like, ah, now I

02:00:24: get it, the head in the heart.

02:00:24: Yes. And then you're then you're

02:00:27: connected and then wow, life becomes

02:00:31: pretty amazing. But yeah, like I love

02:00:34: that. Don't don't take the approach that

02:00:37: you would at work to this because you're

02:00:40: tapping into usually like from seven and

02:00:43: less like seven years old to less like

02:00:46: that's that's like the ideal because that

02:00:47: was probably before the time that like

02:00:50: before ego was created and everything.

02:00:52: And if you tap into that, it is like, you

02:00:55: don't you didn't care about what other

02:00:57: people thought you go play in the mud

02:00:58: like be a filthy child and like, who

02:01:01: cares, right? All that stuff is there.

02:01:04: And it's not in the

02:01:05: head and in the list. Yeah.

02:01:08: Yeah, there's so much gold there.

02:01:11: Yes. Thank you so much for being here and

02:01:14: having this lovely conversation with me.

02:01:16: And yeah, thanks for entering out from.